iDesign @ UCI

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Mission Statement

FAQ

Organization


MISSION STATEMENT:

iDesign Club at UCI seeks to foster scientific discussions regarding the origins of life and the universe. Theories such as Darwinian evolution, intelligent design, and creationism will be critically analyzed.


FAQ:

Q: WHAT IS THIS CLUB ABOUT?

Origins! We are interested in discussing alternative theories to the origins of biological structures. While the current mainstream theory in academia is Darwinian evolution, we would also like to discuss other viable ideas, such as intelligent design.

Q: WHO CAN BE A MEMBER OF THIS CLUB?

Anybody! Students of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Computer Science, Engineering, Anthropology, and Philosophy may especially find this club intriguing. However, you do not need to have a science background to be an effective member of this club.

Q: WHEN AND WHERE ARE CLUB MEETINGS?

Please check blog entries for time and place.

Q: WHAT IS THE MEMBERSHIP FEE?

Nothing! There are no membership dues.

Q: IS THIS CLUB BIASED TOWARDS ONE SPECIFIC THEORY OF ORIGINS?

Perhaps. Ponder the name of this club. This club is ideologically the mirror of another club at UCI, the Students for Science and Skepticism. However, our main goal is to give a balanced view of the controversy regarding the origins of life so that students can come to an informed conclusion themselves.

Q: WHAT DOES THE LETTER "i" STAND FOR IN iDESIGN?

Good question -- the answer is intelligent.

Q: WHERE IS THE CLUB CONSTITUTION?

We adhere to the minimum constitution that was provided by the Dean of Students. In the future, we plan to draft a comprehensive constitution and bylaws.

Q: IS iDESIGN AFFILIATED WITH ANY ORGANIZATION?

No. However, we are friends with the IDEA Center


ORGANIZATION:

PRESIDENT:
Arthur
Information and Computer Science

VICE PRESIDENT:
Brian
Biology / English

DIRECTOR:
Andrew
English / Economics



Thursday, December 28, 2006

Evolutionary Standards of Proof

I've said before that the standards of proof which design theorists require for an evolutionary inference is wildly different from the standard accepted (and usually given) by evolutionists. I've just read a new paper by Pallen and Matzke, From the Origin of Species to the origin of bacterial flagella, and it perfectly illustrates the disconnect. My comments on some quotes from the paper:
By even the most conservative estimate, there must therefore be thousands of different bacterial flagellar systems, perhaps even millions... either there were thousands or even millions of individual creation events, which strains Occam's razor to the breaking point, or one has to accept that all the highly diverse contemporary flagellar systems have evolved from a common ancestor.
First of all, this is rather sloppy use of Occam's razor. All things being equal, a simpler explanation should be prefered to a more complex one. But are all things equal? That is the interesting question. Pallen & Matzke gloss over it, assuming the truth of the controversial premise. This is blatant begging of the question.

Secondly, I don't know if all bacterial flagella descended from a single ancestor by a process of natural selection acting on random variation. They may have. But it takes more than common ancestry, inferred from protein sequence similarities, to decide the question. Common ancestry in itself says nothing about the processes acting on the (simpler?) ancestral flagella which caused it to resemble a modern one over time - only that it did.

What would it take to establish such an evolutionary hypothesis? Real evidence (as opposed to inference from historical data based on naturalistic assumptions) that natural selection is capable of doing that sort of thing.

Thirdly, Pallen & Matzke are clearly relying on a theoretical principle rather than experimental data for the force of their argument. It is fairly obvious that they do not consider creation an allowable explanation. This is fine and good so long as the principle is subservient to the data. But principles can be wrong. They have been wrong. For example: at the beginning of the last century, almost all physicists believed in an infinite, steady-state universe. The concept of a universe with a finite age was actually repugnant to many of them, on purely philosophical grounds. When the Big-Bang theory was first proposed (by a Christian, incidentally - someone with a prior commitment to a creation event) it was opposed for that reason for quite a while before the evidence overwhelmed the sceptics. I wonder if the same thing is in the process of happening in biology.
...but if one accepts that all current flagellar systems diverged from their last common ancestor (the ur-flagellum), why stop there? All flagellins show sequence similarity indicitave of common ancestry... Therefore [on the basis of homology with non-flagellar proteins] the flagellar rod-hook-filament complex has clearly evolved by multiple rounds of gene duplication and subsequent diversification.
I really don't know what to say to this. If protein homology is all the proof of darwinian evolution that you needed, then we should shut down this blog and go home. But it seems clear to me that it is not. Citing homologies does no prove what Pallen & Matzke seem to think it does.
From the above discussions of sequence hommologies and modularity, it is clear that designing an evolutionary model to account for the origin of the bacterial flagella requires no great coneptual leap.
As I have argued before, the hand-waving about homology and possible precursor systems does not approach the level of detail needed to convince anyone familiar with the implementation of complex systems that it is as simple as it sounds.
the flagellar research community has scarcely begun to consider how these systems have evolved. This neglect probably stems from a reluctance to engage in the 'armchair speculation' inherent in building evolutionary models
....
it is no longer enough to say, for example, that bacterial flagella evolved and that is that. Instead, scientific experts have to engage with a sceptical public.

Posted by Wedge at 12:06 PM

7 Comments:

Blogger Nick (Matzke) said...
So, what's your explanation of homology? The entirety of the international bioinformatics infrastructure rests on the concept of evolutionary homology. And a tremendous number of rigorous and quantitative algorithms, all based on evolution from a common ancestor, exist to detect it. But maybe you've got a better idea.

If the best you can do in criticizing our paper is to disagree with us for making standard use of a standard, basic, universally accepted biological concept in bioinformatics, I can't say that impresses me very much. Particularly when all of you ID guys used to make such a big deal of the fact that only 10 out of 40-50 flagellar proteins had homologs, and the rest were "unique." Will you at least admit that the ID movement was wrong in that claim?
12/28/2006 6:14 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
So, what's your explanation of homology? The entirety of the international bioinformatics infrastructure rests on the concept of evolutionary homology. And a tremendous number of rigorous and quantitative algorithms, all based on evolution from a common ancestor, exist to detect it. But maybe you've got a better idea.

First let me make it clear that I think the paper by Matzke et. al. was well written and well documented. It ably argued the case. The problem is not with the data but with an exclusive interpretation of it. Homology is an argument by analogy. What would you expect of an evolutionary paradigm except similarities among organisms in the same line of descent? Except that similarity in itself is not an argument against design. What would be a good argument against design is a natural law capable of generating information in the absence of intelligence. How does DNA acquire that sequence specificity enabling it to code for information laden, sequence specific proteins? If arguments by analogy are in vogue what better one could there be than the relationship between information and intelligence? Information rich molecules are exactly the result one would expect of intelligent causality.

As for rigorous algorithms, the rigor of them is the focus of this comment by a fellow IDer. I believe Wedge and Art have more than a passing acquaintance with programming though.
1/02/2007 9:01 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
So, what's your explanation of homology? The entirety of the international bioinformatics infrastructure rests on the concept of evolutionary homology. And a tremendous number of rigorous and quantitative algorithms, all based on evolution from a common ancestor, exist to detect it. But maybe you've got a better idea.

First let me make it clear that I think the paper by Matzke et. al. was well written and well documented. It ably argued the case. The problem is not with the data but with an exclusive interpretation of it. Homology is an argument by analogy. What would you expect of an evolutionary paradigm except similarities among organisms in the same line of descent? Except that similarity in itself is not an argument against design. What would be a good argument against design is a natural law capable of generating information in the absence of intelligence. How does DNA acquire that sequence specificity enabling it to code for information laden, sequence specific proteins? If arguments by analogy are in vogue what better one could there be than the relationship between information and intelligence? Information rich molecules are exactly the result one would expect of intelligent causality.

As for rigorous algorithms, the rigor of them is the focus of this comment by a fellow IDer. I believe Wedge and Art have more than a passing acquaintance with programming though.
1/02/2007 9:02 PM
Blogger Nick (Matzke) said...
What would be a good argument against design is a natural law capable of generating information in the absence of intelligence. How does DNA acquire that sequence specificity enabling it to code for information laden, sequence specific proteins?

Frankly, this is a dumb question, although it is universal with clueless ID advocates. I say this not to insult, rather only because it is so extremely tiresome to hear this objection over and over again, when the answer is so obviously due to pure scientific illiteracy on the part of the ID advocates.

The origin of new genes, producing new proteins with new functions and new specifities, is well understood. Basically: duplicate gene, mutate, select, mutate, select, etc. Attaining new functions through this sort of process is trivially easy -- it is "microevolution" in creationist terms. Antibodies evolve to find new specificities ever single day, for instance.

Read this paper:

Long M, Betran E, Thornton K, Wang W. (2003). "The origin of new genes: glimpses from the young and old." Nature Reviews Genetics, 4(11):865-75. (handy free PDF)

(Note: If you don't think new genes with different sequences and new functions is new information -- even though it clearly is what IDists are thinking of when they say that DNA has infomation -- then you have to provide a rigorous, quantitative defintion of "information", or your position is meaningless, untestable wordplay.)

As a bonus, gene duplication (sequence copying) nicely explains and predicts homology (sequence similarity).

By the way, if you now retreat back to the origin of life and the origin of the very first "coding" sequence ever, you have run away from and lost the argument about the origin of the flagellum and the explanation of homology.
1/03/2007 3:09 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
The origin of new genes, producing new proteins with new functions and new specifities, is well understood. Basically: duplicate gene, mutate, select, mutate, select, etc. Attaining new functions through this sort of process is trivially easy -- it is "microevolution" in creationist terms. Antibodies evolve to find new specificities ever single day, for instance.

Frankly this is a dumb response to a question directed at the origin of information. Gene duplications occur within the context of already existing, information rich genomes. Information already present enables a gene to exist (existence preceeds duplication) and a nourishing envirnment, made possible by numerous other information rich genes, allows for life while mutations occur. Antibodies are generated within an existing highly complex system. At some point information goes from zero to a non-zero number. That's what origin means.

By the way, if you now retreat back to the origin of life and the origin of the very first "coding" sequence ever, you have run away from and lost the argument about the origin of the flagellum and the explanation of homology.

Actually I made some complementary remarks about your paper. However that should not allow us to ignore a problem inherent in homology based arguments. You can trace a trail only so far as homologous genes allow Mechanistc details of pathways are neglected. Real biochemical pathways are loaded with details about genes, proteins, enzymatic reactions and more. The detail contrast between them and evolutionary pathways is striking. It is the other side retreating from reality when they attempt to artificially restrict inquiries to specific stages of development.
1/04/2007 10:36 AM
Blogger Nick (Matzke) said...
Frankly this is a dumb response to a question directed at the origin of information. Gene duplications occur within the context of already existing, information rich genomes. Information already present enables a gene to exist (existence preceeds duplication) and a nourishing envirnment, made possible by numerous other information rich genes, allows for life while mutations occur. Antibodies are generated within an existing highly complex system.

None of this even addresses the flagellum evolution model, let alone debunks it. The flagellum evolved in an already complex bacterium, by coopting simpler systems with other functions.

However that should not allow us to ignore a problem inherent in homology based arguments. You can trace a trail only so far as homologous genes allow Mechanistc details of pathways are neglected.

The flagellum evolution model is far more detailed than the ID model, which is about as vague and non-explanatory as it is possible to be.

And, you have still provided no explanation at all for sequence similarity, whereas I have provided an extremely simple, extremely well-tested and non-miraculous explanation for sequence similarity.
1/04/2007 10:38 PM
Blogger Gary S. Hurd said...
Hello there. This is not a cogent comment on the current thread, but you all might like to know about an up-coming event.

Jan. 20 Saturday 2pm, Mission Viejo: Just a year ago on Dec. 20, 2005, the George W. Bush appointed Federal judge John Jones III, released his decision in the famous Dover, PA creationism trial. Jones found in the strongest terms that Intelligent Design "theory" was not science, and as a religious doctrine it had no place in public school science courses. And, on Dec. 19, 2006 some of the same participants from AU, and the ACLU prevailed in Cobb County, Georgia against the creationist efforts there. Much of the success in Dover was due to the excellent representation by ACLU attorney Eric Rothschild, the scientific advisers from the National Center for Science Education, and the expert witnesses for the plaintiffs. Rothschild used excerpts from a book, "Why Intelligent Design Fails" in his cross examination of creationist expert witness Michael Behe. The author of that book chapter used in Dover, Dr. Gary Hurd, will be presenting a short talk on intelligent design creationism, and the Dover trial on Jan. 20 at 2 PM for Borders Books Mission Viejo. Dr. Hurd will be taking questions and signing books.

Nick had a ring-side seat for the entire Dover trial and most of the lead up as well, so he would hear nothing new in my talk.
1/10/2007 5:17 PM

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