iDesign @ UCI

Welcome Message To New Students

Interested in Origins?
Join the club.


Mission Statement

FAQ

Organization


MISSION STATEMENT:

iDesign Club at UCI seeks to foster scientific discussions regarding the origins of life and the universe. Theories such as Darwinian evolution, intelligent design, and creationism will be critically analyzed.


FAQ:

Q: WHAT IS THIS CLUB ABOUT?

Origins! We are interested in discussing alternative theories to the origins of biological structures. While the current mainstream theory in academia is Darwinian evolution, we would also like to discuss other viable ideas, such as intelligent design.

Q: WHO CAN BE A MEMBER OF THIS CLUB?

Anybody! Students of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Computer Science, Engineering, Anthropology, and Philosophy may especially find this club intriguing. However, you do not need to have a science background to be an effective member of this club.

Q: WHEN AND WHERE ARE CLUB MEETINGS?

Please check blog entries for time and place.

Q: WHAT IS THE MEMBERSHIP FEE?

Nothing! There are no membership dues.

Q: IS THIS CLUB BIASED TOWARDS ONE SPECIFIC THEORY OF ORIGINS?

Perhaps. Ponder the name of this club. This club is ideologically the mirror of another club at UCI, the Students for Science and Skepticism. However, our main goal is to give a balanced view of the controversy regarding the origins of life so that students can come to an informed conclusion themselves.

Q: WHAT DOES THE LETTER "i" STAND FOR IN iDESIGN?

Good question -- the answer is intelligent.

Q: WHERE IS THE CLUB CONSTITUTION?

We adhere to the minimum constitution that was provided by the Dean of Students. In the future, we plan to draft a comprehensive constitution and bylaws.

Q: IS iDESIGN AFFILIATED WITH ANY ORGANIZATION?

No. However, we are friends with the IDEA Center


ORGANIZATION:

PRESIDENT:
Arthur
Information and Computer Science

VICE PRESIDENT:
Brian
Biology / English

DIRECTOR:
Andrew
English / Economics



Thursday, June 29, 2006

Evolving Compositional Operators

In a comment on my post about the book Compositional Evolution, William Bradford pointed out that the compositional operators which are supposed to enable greater evolutionary change are themselves embedded in and dependent upon complex cellular contexts. So, by themselves, they do not explain the problem of biological complexity.

This immediately suggests a few research problems. It seems that the problem of the origin of compositional variation methods must be described by a gradualist framework (unless we assume that the first reproducing organisms contained them, which seems unlikely). So, characterizations of these mechanisms as strongly interdependent and irreducibly complex would provide a greater problem to evolution than evolution with them does. This would be hard to do, because such mechanisms aren't easy to separate from the function of the rest of the cell. But then, perhaps that strengthens the point.

From a more formal perspective, can random-mutation genetic algorithms evolve different modes of variation which include compositional mechanisms? My hunch is that they can, but only by specifying the target ahead of time, that is front-loading the algorithm with everything it needs to know to reach the desired goal. Such a teleological search is not biologically plausible under Darwinian assumptions.

Posted by Wedge at 7:53 AM

25 Comments:

Blogger William Bradford said...
Front-loading everything it needs to know while ignoring other biological realities might get the desired outcome. Consider an algorithm designed to illustrate the loss of genomic integrity. Organisms contain an array of compositional operators whose function inhibits the accumulation of mutations; the very mechanism said to account for evolutionary change. Their greatest impact is found on essential cellular functions like protein synthesis and cellular replication. Disabling these functions leads to a notable and swift decline in fitness.

Evolution requires that newly acquired beneficial changes become fixed. An algorithm demonstrating genomic decay would require that any algorithm showing accumulating complexity (required by the evolutionary directional arrow of earth's natural history) show a rate differential sufficient to overcome the rate of genomic decay. This in turn requires that compositional operators, whose function relates to DNA error detection and repair, evolve very early in the process. Such functions are found in unicellular organisms and strong evidence points to their indispensibility.
6/29/2006 8:17 PM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
Yes, abiogenesis is a puzzle. Considering how little has been invested in its study, this is to be expected. We do not yet have an adequate explanation of abiogenesis. There are very few people who claim that it is explained. However, this is not the same as stating that it will never be explained which is what ID advocates would like it to mean. Ignorance of the mechanisms of abiogenesis is not evidence that life could not originate from inanimate matter.

If you want ID to provide an alternative explanation (something it has utterly failed to do thus far), you're going to have to come up with a theory of ID that predicts what we see and what we have yet to see. Not in terms of future evolution, but in terms of lab experiments that confirm or deny the theory.

The advances of evolutionary biology have been founded on small, testable theories of biochemical and genetic mechanisms, not on the global premise that no design played any role in our origin. Indeed, design scenarios can be compatible with evolutionary ones. The door has always been open to scientific theories of design. It's just that none have yet been proposed.

Your design predictions have to be sensitive to your design theory, not simply due to the consistency of observed mechanisms. Finding that life is complex does not in any way imply design. Thanks to Darwin and others, it is now a proven fact that complexity doesn't have to come from something more complex. Evolutionary theories and ID theories (should we ever actually see any ID theories) both have the same burden. They have to show that the observed structure of life is predicted by the mechanisms proposed.

The reason why there's no theory of ID is that no actual teleology has been proposed! Why were we designed this way? For what purpose? Why are we carbon instead of silicon? Why is there only one basic design and not 300? Why would a designer so powerful just create evolving protolife instead of building an entire static biosphere of eukaryotes? Why use biological systems at all? Not only do you not have any answers to these questions, you don't even have proposed answers to them. Ancient design is non-predictive unless you can show utility. And the 4 billion year history of life on this planet is apparently useless to any being capable of designing it.

Also, statements like such a teleological search is not biologically plausible under Darwinian assumptions are just plain false. You don't know the odds. No one does. We can't even fold a protein in simulation, let alone simulate a single-celled life form. For all we know, abiogenesis and evolution are so probable as to be virtually inevitable. So, you cannot build a scientific case for ID based on negative evidence for alternatives. A lack of explanations doesn't add up to an alternative explanation.
6/30/2006 12:40 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Yes, abiogenesis is a puzzle. Considering how little has been invested in its study, this is to be expected. We do not yet have an adequate explanation of abiogenesis. There are very few people who claim that it is explained. However, this is not the same as stating that it will never be explained which is what ID advocates would like it to mean. Ignorance of the mechanisms of abiogenesis is not evidence that life could not originate from inanimate matter.

Bradford: Assuming that lack of evidence for mechanisms equates to ignorance of their existence rather than evidence of their non-existence is an arbitrary preference. Objects of multiple interacting parts known to be intelligently designed share a common property- they would not result solely from unintelligent natural forces. The insufficiency of undirected natural causes is evidence of intelligent input.

If you want ID to provide an alternative explanation (something it has utterly failed to do thus far), you're going to have to come up with a theory of ID that predicts what we see and what we have yet to see. Not in terms of future evolution, but in terms of lab experiments that confirm or deny the theory.

Bradford: Genetically engineer a rapidly reproducing organism so that the encoding genes for a function having selective value are disabled and place the organism under selective pressure to test the probability that the relevant function will evolve.

Your design predictions have to be sensitive to your design theory, not simply due to the consistency of observed mechanisms. Finding that life is complex does not in any way imply design. Thanks to Darwin and others, it is now a proven fact that complexity doesn't have to come from something more complex.

Bradford: This has not been demonstrated. Darwinism starts with an existing functional genome and an existing means to express it. Its starting point is a functional cell. It avoids the most difficult part of the process- accounting for the origin of a self-replicating biological unit. Instead we are given a promissory note and told lack of answers are a function of our ignorance. Actually the expectation that a minimal genome and a means of expressing and protecting it would evolve in an extra-cellular environment runs counter to what we know about cellular biology and genetics.

Evolutionary theories and ID theories (should we ever actually see any ID theories) both have the same burden. They have to show that the observed structure of life is predicted by the mechanisms proposed.

Bradford: Intelligence can be detected despite complete ignorance of a generating mechanism. An 18th century American would be able to recognize the intelligent cause generating this message despite complete unfamiliarity with electronics, computers, power sources... All that is required is familiarity with the encoding conventions and symbolic notation associated with the English language. Encoding coventions are evidence of intelligence.

Teolological questions are philosophically interesting. A philosophy class is a proper venue.
6/30/2006 7:41 PM
Blogger Wedge said...
We do not yet have an adequate explanation of abiogenesis. There are very few people who claim that it is explained. However, this is not the same as stating that it will never be explained which is what ID advocates would like it to mean. Ignorance of the mechanisms of abiogenesis is not evidence that life could not originate from inanimate matter.

If abiogenesis were treated as a (currently improbable) hypothesis which merits more research and which may be either true or false, I would not object. But it is treated as a fact for which we do not have an explanation. When someone objects that there is actually little evidence for this "fact", they are told that it is their job to prove that it didn't happen, and that furthermore current evidence is insufficient to do this because we might someday discover a law which makes it probable. Doesn't this sound backward?

Also, statements like such a teleological search is not biologically plausible under Darwinian assumptions are just plain false. You don't know the odds. No one does. We can't even fold a protein in simulation, let alone simulate a single-celled life form. For all we know, abiogenesis and evolution are so probable as to be virtually inevitable. So, you cannot build a scientific case for ID based on negative evidence for alternatives. A lack of explanations doesn't add up to an alternative explanation.

If "abiogenesis is astronomically unlikely" is not a valid scientific hypothesis but "abiogenesis is sufficiently likely" is, then the deck is stacked against ID in a way which I think is obviously designed to prevent falsification of this particular thesis.

Regarding my teleology comment: I actually think it's just plain true :-). My point was that the parameters for genetic algorithms can be (intelligently) tweaked so as to point them at a pre-specified target. But natural selection has not pre-specified target and no agent to do the tweaking.
7/01/2006 9:11 AM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
William,

Assuming that lack of evidence for mechanisms equates to ignorance of their existence rather than evidence of their non-existence is an arbitrary preference.

Irrelevant. If it applies to abiogenesis, it applies to ID. The question is whether a mechanism has actually been found to explain life's origin, by abiogenesis or ID. Neither has been found. For ID to be an explanation, you need to find a perpetrator, or evidence of one. You have not found any such thing. All you have found is that life is complex.

The insufficiency of undirected natural causes is evidence of intelligent input.

No, it isn't. First of all, undirected natural causes are not incapable. They haven't even been shown to be improbable.

Second, how can intelligent input be validated when there is no evidence of an intelligent agency? Complex stuff is not evidence in and of itself. There has to be utility for an agent.

Genetically engineer a rapidly reproducing organism so that the encoding genes for a function having selective value are disabled and place the organism under selective pressure to test the probability that the relevant function will evolve.

That's not a test of ID. It's a test of undirected evolutionary processes. Care to try again?

Its starting point is a functional cell. It avoids the most difficult part of the process- accounting for the origin of a self-replicating biological unit.

This proves my last point. You believe that ID predicts that the cells in your proposed experiment will evolve because they were designed to do so. Therefore, your proposed experiment would not test ID at all. It's not sensitive to whether ID is true or false.

An 18th century American would be able to recognize the intelligent cause generating this message despite complete unfamiliarity with electronics, computers, power sources...

Why? Because the utility of the encoded message to its designer is obvious.

However, the utility of DNA messages in life to a primordial designer is obscure to the point of non-existence. So, not just a subject for philosophy class after all. The only reason you would suggest such a thing is that you think the designer is God.
7/01/2006 12:13 PM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
Wedge,

When someone objects that there is actually little evidence for this "fact", they are told that it is their job to prove that it didn't happen, and that furthermore current evidence is insufficient to do this because we might someday discover a law which makes it probable. Doesn't this sound backward?

Either there is an explanation or there isn't one. Today, there isn't one. However, you are not proposing an explanation at all. You are proposing that life is the result of magic. That's not a competing explanation.

If "abiogenesis is astronomically unlikely" is not a valid scientific hypothesis but "abiogenesis is sufficiently likely" is, then the deck is stacked against ID in a way which I think is obviously designed to prevent falsification of this particular thesis.

That's not your hypothesis!!!!

What does this question have to do with ID? The hypothesis that abiogensis is improbable is unrelated to the hypothesis that there was a designer.

If you have an ID theory, produce a hypothesis that is related to your theory. Otherwise, you're just saying that we're lucky to be here - that if we ran primordial Earth all over again, we would be unlikely to reappear. Interesting, but irrelevant to the question of design.

My point was that the parameters for genetic algorithms can be (intelligently) tweaked so as to point them at a pre-specified target. But natural selection has not pre-specified target and no agent to do the tweaking.

Then I guess it's fortunate that evolution doesn't need a pre-specified target.
7/01/2006 12:39 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Irrelevant. If it applies to abiogenesis, it applies to ID. The question is whether a mechanism has actually been found to explain life's origin, by abiogenesis or ID. Neither has been found. For ID to be an explanation, you need to find a perpetrator, or evidence of one. You have not found any such thing. All you have found is that life is complex.

Bradford: We have found more than that. Natural selection, the cornerstone of Darwinism, breaks down in a prebiotic environment. There is no basis upon which one can predict which random chemical reactions would produce a minimal genome. Since the selective value of such a genome is dependent on the content and sequential order of its codons as well as the utility of its encoded proteins, a functional genome will not be formed piecemeal or in the absence of intelligence. Your evidence of a perpetrator lies in the genetic code.

The insufficiency of undirected natural causes is evidence of intelligent input.

No, it isn't. First of all, undirected natural causes are not incapable. They haven't even been shown to be improbable.

Bradford: When is the last time you examined the amino acid sequences of the active sites of 20 tRNA amino acyl synthetases? Asserting that it is not even improbable that a prebiotic processs leads to the type of sequence specificity found in these and other essential enzymes or in their corresponding encoding genes can be explained by precisely what evidence?

Second, how can intelligent input be validated when there is no evidence of an intelligent agency? Complex stuff is not evidence in and of itself. There has to be utility for an agent.

Bradford: The evidence of an intelligent agency lies in the sequential order of nucleic acids. It is not simply complexity. Sequential order is not formed incrementally in the absence of supporting cellular functions.

Genetically engineer a rapidly reproducing organism so that the encoding genes for a function having selective value are disabled and place the organism under selective pressure to test the probability that the relevant function will evolve.

That's not a test of ID. It's a test of undirected evolutionary processes. Care to try again?

Bradford: Falsification of an undirected evolutionary process is evidence for the alternative. There are two opposing paradigms with no middle ground.

Its starting point is a functional cell. It avoids the most difficult part of the process- accounting for the origin of a self-replicating biological unit.


This proves my last point. You believe that ID predicts that the cells in your proposed experiment will evolve because they were designed to do so.

Bradford: I do not believe biological systems would evolve at all. The adaptation we observe in unicellular organisms coincides with minor changes usually resulting from point mutations. We do not observe systems composed of complexes of novel proteins evolving and I would not predict that it would occur.

Therefore, your proposed experiment would not test ID at all. It's not sensitive to whether ID is true or false.

Bradford: Untrue. Observing the evolution of new biological systems composed of multiple proteins would falsify the contention that they do not do so in the absence of intelligent guidance. What would falsify abiogenesis?

An 18th century American would be able to recognize the intelligent cause generating this message despite complete unfamiliarity with electronics, computers, power sources...

Why? Because the utility of the encoded message to its designer is obvious.

Bradford: You cannot determine utility unless you understand the message conveyed by the alphanumeric symbols. A string of symbols resulting from my cat walking across the keyboard could be wrongly construed as having utility by an illiterate or one unfamiliar with English. You are attempting to circumvent the obvious- intelligence can be detected even when its source is unknown.

However, the utility of DNA messages in life to a primordial designer is obscure to the point of non-existence. So, not just a subject for philosophy class after all. The only reason you would suggest such a thing is that you think the designer is God.

Bradford: The only reason you would rule it out is because of God. The genetic code is comparable to others known to be of intelligent origin because intelligent entities share similar properties.
7/01/2006 2:24 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Wedge: When someone objects that there is actually little evidence for this "fact", they are told that it is their job to prove that it didn't happen, and that furthermore current evidence is insufficient to do this because we might someday discover a law which makes it probable. Doesn't this sound backward?

Doc: Either there is an explanation or there isn't one. Today, there isn't one. However, you are not proposing an explanation at all. You are proposing that life is the result of magic. That's not a competing explanation.

Bradford: Sorry Doc but suggesting that life is the result of unknown mechanisms, undiscovered causes and imaginary pathways is the real magic that has been hoisted on the rest of us for too long. A hypothesis attributing intelligence as a cause is at risk of being falsified by evidence demonstrating an unintelligent natural force as the cause. There is no risk for abiogenesis. A century and more of investigations revealing no generating mechanism is accompanied by faith-like allegiance to the cause among abiogenesis enthusiasts. The reason is an argument from incredulity which admits to no possibility of an intelligent inference because secondary inferences from it are philosophically uncomfortable for some.
7/01/2006 7:05 PM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
William,

I'll try to summarize your major points.

First, you are claiming that we have evidence that abiogenesis is extremely improbable. You make this claim citing sophisticated systems that are present in modern life forms. You totally ignore the possibility of precursors. I've seen this game before. I once attended a talk in which an ID advocate quoted the probability of the atoms of a DNA molecule coalescing out of gaseous form and into the form of a chromosome. But does anyone actually think that's what happened? Does anyone think that life went from simple chemistry to DNA in one step? Of course not. Whether that step was an RNA world or something simpler, we don't know, but quoting the complexity of modern forms is utterly irrelevant. You don't know what the precursors may have been, so you can't quote the odds on their forming. No one can, as yet.

Second, you claim that, since directed and undirected evolution are mutually exclusive possibilities, finding no evidence of evolutionary mechanisms bolsters the case for ID. There are a couple of reasons why your claim doesn't work.

1) What constitutes a directed process? Presumably, genetic algorithms do not count. So what are the specific processes that count as directed vs. undirected? And, once you have made this distinction, what experiments are sensitive to the difference?

2) Suppose that we have a deck of 52 cards, and one of us claims that the Ace of Hearts is missing from the deck, and the other claims it is present. The further we go through the deck without finding the Ace, the more likely it is that the Ace is missing.

Thus, for a finite deck, a lack of evidence is evidence for a lack.

Of course, when the deck is infinitely high, this breaks down. Science is not a finite endeavor, so you argument breaks down immediately. But let's suppose that science isn't infinite. In that case, we must ask how high is the deck, and how many cards have we exposed?

If your claim that the Ace is missing is the claim that there is no natural mechanism that accounts for evolution, then the answer is that we have exposed less than 1% of the cards in the deck. Do we understand genetic mechanisms? Do we know what fraction of sequences are viable? Do we understand in detail how non-coding sequences affect regulation? Do we understand pure protein processes within cells? Can we build cells from scratch? Can we build life from scratch? We can do none of these things. We may know a lot, but I think we'll have a better understanding by the time we can build human cells from scratch. We still have at least 99% of the deck to traverse.

I do not believe biological systems would evolve at all. The adaptation we observe in unicellular organisms coincides with minor changes usually resulting from point mutations. We do not observe systems composed of complexes of novel proteins evolving and I would not predict that it would occur.

There's a mountain of evidence that says they do.

If we did not evolve by mutations, why do closely related species share mutations? Why is the pattern of mutations (some of them defective) across species so consistent with our supposed evolutionary history? For example, all cats have a mutation that makes them unable to handle sugar. Why did the designer build this defect into all cats from an apparent common ancestor? Why not fix defects at speciation? Design does not predict this pattern of defects. Design is consistent with the pattern, but consistency isn't enough. Design does not predict this, whereas evolution does.

You are attempting to circumvent the obvious- intelligence can be detected even when its source is unknown.

This is Paley's argument warmed over. It's the "design is obvious, so the burden falls on science to prove otherwise" argument. Design may feel intuitive, but that's not science.

You are ignoring utility again. Design and complexity are not one and the same. If we dug up a steel girder on the Moon, we could infer an intelligent cause for its construction despite the girder's simplicity. Why? Because girders have utility to beings to manufacture physical structures. Even art has utility for artists and their patrons.

Now consider what utility is predicted by evolution. Survival. That's it. And that's all we observe. So, you tell me, of the billions of possible utilities for which life could have been designed, what are the odds that life would appear to have been designed just to survive? From a utility perspective, design is ruled out by many orders of magnitude.
7/02/2006 6:05 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Doc: First, you are claiming that we have evidence that abiogenesis is extremely improbable. You make this claim citing sophisticated systems that are present in modern life forms. You totally ignore the possibility of precursors.

Bradford: Untrue. Consideration of precursors should be based on what we know about biochemistry. Proteins and nucleic acids are polymers. Their molecular size makes it unlikely that they would form outside cellular environments. Short peptide chains have been observed to form under limited conditions outside cells but the experimental results are not encouraging for OOLers. Amino acid sequences forming essential proteins, thought to be highly conserved from putative ancient cells, are not observed. Neither are amino acid polymers large enough to form even small proteins. Results are not surprising for it is encoding genes and transcription/translation mechanisms that enable the formation of large, functional proteins. As I have mentioned the selective value of such genes is dependent on the survival value they confer to the cells containing them. An extra-cellular environment removes natural selection theoretics from consideration.

I've seen this game before. I once attended a talk in which an ID advocate quoted the probability of the atoms of a DNA molecule coalescing out of gaseous form and into the form of a chromosome. But does anyone actually think that's what happened? Does anyone think that life went from simple chemistry to DNA in one step? Of course not. Whether that step was an RNA world or something simpler, we don't know, but quoting the complexity of modern forms is utterly irrelevant. You don't know what the precursors may have been, so you can't quote the odds on their forming. No one can, as yet.

Bradford: This is a game. There is no evidence for precursor cells, precursor proteins and precursor genomes. Worse yet the theoretical concepts upon which variation is explained are non-existent on prebiotic earth. If the sequential order of any nucleotide that might form in prebiotic conditions does not enhance cellular survival then there exists no basis for according a functional sequence selective value. You have no scientific basis upon which to presume that a series of extra-cellular chemical reactions leads to an incremental formation of a cell and much reason to doubt it.

Second, you claim that, since directed and undirected evolution are mutually exclusive possibilities, finding no evidence of evolutionary mechanisms bolsters the case for ID. There are a couple of reasons why your claim doesn't work.

1) What constitutes a directed process? Presumably, genetic algorithms do not count. So what are the specific processes that count as directed vs. undirected? And, once you have made this distinction, what experiments are sensitive to the difference?

Bradford: Directed means an outcome that is, in whole or in part, intelligently determined. Undirected is an absence of intelligent input. Any experimental result favoring an abiogenesis or evolutionary outcome would be evidence for the undirected outcome. I've mentioned gene knockout experiments in environmental conditions of selective pressure as providing potential evidence for either side depending on the outcome. Both paradigms are at risk.

Another experiment along these lines would be designed to test both abiogenesis and evolution as well as claims that intelligence is a necessary perequiste to generating life and its variations. The helical structure of DNA allows for templates that make protein synthesis and cellular replication possible. However the DNA strands must be separated and the incision process induces supercoiling; a physical phenomenon that disrupts the synthesis and replication functions in the absence of a complex of proteins that counter the its effects. There are practical and theoretical difficulties for standard theories in that the effects are problematic for the evolution of an incremental coping mechanism. If all the needed proteins and their encoding genes are not available the first time there is no second chance for that genome. We know DNA formed its noted helical form. We also know supercoils trigger a form of genomic apoptosis when the coping mechanism is not in place. The removal of just one of a group of genes encoding the required proteins should simulate a point in natural history. It is also a proposed condition for an experiment.

2) Suppose that we have a deck of 52 cards, and one of us claims that the Ace of Hearts is missing from the deck, and the other claims it is present. The further we go through the deck without finding the Ace, the more likely it is that the Ace is missing.

Thus, for a finite deck, a lack of evidence is evidence for a lack.

Of course, when the deck is infinitely high, this breaks down. Science is not a finite endeavor, so you argument breaks down immediately. But let's suppose that science isn't infinite. In that case, we must ask how high is the deck, and how many cards have we exposed?

Bradford: The claim that science is not a finite endeavor is unclear. What is an infinite endeavor?

If your claim that the Ace is missing is the claim that there is no natural mechanism that accounts for evolution, then the answer is that we have exposed less than 1% of the cards in the deck. Do we understand genetic mechanisms?

Bradford: We understand quite a bit including how and when genes are expressed, the encoding relationship between codons and amino acids, sequences that signal the initiation of transcription, the starting point of translation and, very importantly for this discussion, the means by which genomes detect and repair errors so as to maintain genomic integrity.

Do we know what fraction of sequences are viable? Do we understand in detail how non-coding sequences affect regulation? Do we understand pure protein processes within cells? Can we build cells from scratch? Can we build life from scratch? We can do none of these things. We may know a lot, but I think we'll have a better understanding by the time we can build human cells from scratch. We still have at least 99% of the deck to traverse.

Bradford: There has been a pattern in evidence as knowledge about genetics and molecular biology has accumulated. Increasing knowledge has revealed that cells are ever more intricate than previously thought. There is no reason to expect this not to continue. This does not bode well for beliefs, dependent on undirected chemical reactions on prebiotic earth, to explain a molecules to cell scenario.

I do not believe biological systems would evolve at all. The adaptation we observe in unicellular organisms coincides with minor changes usually resulting from point mutations. We do not observe systems composed of complexes of novel proteins evolving and I would not predict that it would occur.

There's a mountain of evidence that says they do.

Bradford: There's a mountain corresponding to the non-observation of novel systems of protein complexes evolving.

If we did not evolve by mutations, why do closely related species share mutations?

Bradford: There is much evidence that mutations are not random and that genetic change can be linked to specific shared sequence patterns.

Why is the pattern of mutations (some of them defective) across species so consistent with our supposed evolutionary history? For example, all cats have a mutation that makes them unable to handle sugar. Why did the designer build this defect into all cats from an apparent common ancestor? Why not fix defects at speciation? Design does not predict this pattern of defects. Design is consistent with the pattern, but consistency isn't enough. Design does not predict this, whereas evolution does.

Bradford: Design does not have to be optimal. The fact that we are subject to disease and death indicates it is not. Design that allows for defects is an issue about intent and theological answers are available.

You are attempting to circumvent the obvious- intelligence can be detected even when its source is unknown.

This is Paley's argument warmed over. It's the "design is obvious, so the burden falls on science to prove otherwise" argument. Design may feel intuitive, but that's not science.

Bradford: The statement your comment is directed at indicates that intelligence is detectable in principle.

You are ignoring utility again. Design and complexity are not one and the same. If we dug up a steel girder on the Moon, we could infer an intelligent cause for its construction despite the girder's simplicity. Why? Because girders have utility to beings to manufacture physical structures. Even art has utility for artists and their patrons.

Now consider what utility is predicted by evolution. Survival. That's it. And that's all we observe. So, you tell me, of the billions of possible utilities for which life could have been designed, what are the odds that life would appear to have been designed just to survive? From a utility perspective, design is ruled out by many orders of magnitude.

Bradford: Of course life must allow for survival. That enables us to enjoy much more: poetry, art, music, baseball, soccer and a whole lot more non-survival activites.
7/02/2006 8:46 PM
Blogger Wedge said...
doctor_logic,

Either there is an explanation or there isn't one. Today, there isn't one. However, you are not proposing an explanation at all. You are proposing that life is the result of magic. That's not a competing explanation.
If by "magic" you mean "not some combination of chance and law", then what I am proposing is "magic". But if you mean "not predictive and not falsifiable", then no. In fact, evidence that abiogenesis is implausible (i.e., so incredibly unlikely as to be an unsatisfying explanation) via chance and law is exactly what a design inference would predict. In your response to William you mentioned several things we have yet to "uncover" in the deck. ID makes predictions about tons of these - for example, that the relative faction of useful protein sequences is sparse.

Then I guess it's fortunate that evolution doesn't need a pre-specified target.
That is exactly what is at issue.

1) What constitutes a directed process? Presumably, genetic algorithms do not count. So what are the specific processes that count as directed vs. undirected? And, once you have made this distinction, what experiments are sensitive to the difference?
This is a fantastic question, but not one I'm prepared to answer off-the-cuff. I'll put some thought into it, and maybe turn it into a future post.

Thus, for a finite deck, a lack of evidence is evidence for a lack. Of course, when the deck is infinitely high, this breaks down.
As far as I'm concerned the probability of a hypothesis should be considered remote so long as the current evidence for it remains poor. Under your framework I can claim all sorts of crazy things and then say that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack because of the poor state of current scientific knowledge, thus conveniently defering falsifiability of my thesis into the remote future.

Since we currently do not know of any mechanisms which produce life from non-life (and which ID claims do not exist), the burden is on those who advocate the hypothesis to prove that it is a convincing one, not on design theorists (whose hypothesis is supported by the evidence today) to accept a promisory note.

But if this is a valid mode of argument, then why not extend it to ID? For example, our current inability to explain the utility of the cat's sugar mutation should not be surprising given the poor state of our knowledge of population genetics and ecology. I can think of several other examples which you would probably find ridiculous (as I find abiogenesis ridiculous), but which depend for formal falsification on ludicrously precise knowledge of incredibly complex, dynamic systems.

Incidentally, I expect you will claim that the predictions I mentioned above are not really predictions of ID. I can only respond that yes, they are. ID does not just claim that "a designer did it", ID claims that chance and necessity are fundamentally incapable of producing the sort of stuff we see. And since we know that intelligence is capable of doing so, the case for ID is bolstered by the discrediting of chance and necessity as viable alternatives.
7/02/2006 10:10 PM
Blogger Wedge said...
By the way, William, your comments would be more readable if you mark the section of text you are replying to with, say, italics. You could do this with the html italics tag, like so: text
7/02/2006 10:21 PM
Blogger Wedge said...
d'oh! blogger stripped out my escape characters. You need to surround your text with <i>text</i>
7/02/2006 10:23 PM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
William,

There is no evidence for precursor cells, precursor proteins and precursor genomes.

Again, you are claiming that modern mechanisms won't work in archaic environments. The assumption that protolife was based on DNA or RNA is just a first guess. It's possible that the first DNA and RNA molecules had an essentially non-encoding purpose.

Suppose we have a collection of protocells that can absorb water and compounds from outside the cell. Imagine that these cells divide when the cell size becomes larger than some characteristic radius that is determined by the chemistry of the cell. Now, suppose that, statistically, the chemical composition and behavior of the cell is preserved during cell growth and division. In this case, there would be multiple competing cells which replicate without need of DNA or any sophisticated encoding mechanism. You would have natural selection without DNA because replication and inheritance are matters of simple chemical properties rather than complex DNA-like regulatory functions. Now suppose that RNA and DNA precursors appear in such cells, perhaps not for encoding information, but for some other purpose, e.g., regulating some protein concentration during cell division. Within such an environment, the stage is set for the machinery of RNA and DNA to evolve.

Yes, this is a "just so" story. In fact, I just cooked it up off the top of my head. However, it is also obvious that we cannot assert that such a scenario (and there are a myriad of similar ideas one might invent) are a priori impossible or improbable. They haven't been explored, and the claims you are making are still all about the impracticality of embedding modern mechanisms in primordial soups instead of in precursor environments. That is, you are unjustified in assuming that DNA and RNA serve the same functions (or even appear at all) in early precursors.

We understand quite a bit including how and when genes are expressed... and, very importantly for this discussion, the means by which genomes detect and repair errors so as to maintain genomic integrity.

There has been a pattern in evidence as knowledge about genetics and molecular biology has accumulated. Increasing knowledge has revealed that cells are ever more intricate than previously thought. There is no reason to expect this not to continue.

I'll just leave those two quotes sitting next to eachother. :)

Design that allows for defects is an issue about intent and theological answers are available.

Ah, so we cannot use utility as a test for intelligence because we can cook up a reason why God wants the world to appear as if it evolved? Not convincing, and definitely not scientific.

Look, ID just isn't explanatory because you cannot have explanation without prediction. That a car's bald tires explain its running off the road relies on the prediction that cars with bald tires will prefer to run off the road. However, you cannot reasonably assert that deities prefer to make infinite, defective universes in which to breed far more primitive species to whom the their creator's purpose appears unclear or non-existent. That a God created the world does not predict that it should appear the way it does.

If you cannot make a prediction, then your "theory" is just a restatement of the data. It isn't an explanation at all.

Of course life must allow for survival. That enables us to enjoy much more: poetry, art, music, baseball, soccer and a whole lot more non-survival activites.

Talk about ego! The whole universe, here just for us to play soccer. Four billion years of life and death, just so we can enjoy hotdogs with baseball. Let me guess... the Earth is at the center of the universe, after all!
7/03/2006 10:01 AM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
Wedge,

Incidentally, I expect you will claim that the predictions I mentioned above are not really predictions of ID. I can only respond that yes, they are. ID does not just claim that "a designer did it", ID claims that chance and necessity are fundamentally incapable of producing the sort of stuff we see. And since we know that intelligence is capable of doing so, the case for ID is bolstered by the discrediting of chance and necessity as viable alternatives.

How do you know that intelligence is capable of doing it? Precisely what are the mechanisms that would constitute intelligent design and manufacture? Perhaps I cannot point to specific mechanisms that account for abiogenesis, but you cannot point to specific mechanisms that account for design of life.

Now, if we could design and construct complex biological life forms ourselves, then you would have evidence that intelligence could do it. So far, no such thing has been even remotely demonstrated.

For example, our current inability to explain the utility of the cat's sugar mutation should not be surprising given the poor state of our knowledge of population genetics and ecology.

Wedge, this doesn't help you. What you would be saying is that I cannot utterly rule out design the way you claim to utterly rule out lack of design. The verifying the impossibility of design is not my goal. I'm not convinced its even possible in principle. Evolutionary biologists simply look for mechanisms with explanatory power.

Now, if your design theory had explanatory power vis-a-vis utility, it would be a lot more convincing. But what is the utility of cats to the designer? Surely, a designer who wants cats, wants the best cat she can get. That may mean she needs to mutate the cat's gene to get her best possible cat. However, you haven't explained why she needs a cat at all.

Contrast this with evolution. Evolution doesn't need cats, let alone perfect ones. Evolution doesn't predict perfection, so the mutation could turn out to be good or bad for cats in some regard. However, evolution predicts common ancestry, and all that entails. Design does not.

So, I'm perfectly happy to apply the same criteria to theories of ID (should we ever actually see any).

Evolution and ID are not scientific theories. They are classes of theories. A scientific theory of evolution makes specific predictions, and describes specific mechanisms that account for observations. Likewise, a scientific theory of ID must do the same.

So, let's compare the evolution and ID classes.

You are right to say that there are few (if any) theories of abiogenesis because there are few predictive models of abiogenic processes. However, there are plenty of proven scientific evolutionary theories, from predicted mutation rates to natural selection itself.

As for the ID class, it is devoid of theories that are scientific or predictive. You can claim that you just don't yet know why the cats were mutated, just like I can claim I don't yet know what mechanism is responsible for abiogenesis. But you have not a shred of evidence for your claims of intelligent intervention in evolutionary biology, whereas evolution has a mountain of predictive evidence about specific mechanisms. That is, ID has made less progress globally than evolutionary biology has made at tackling abiogenesis.
7/03/2006 11:32 AM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Bradford:
textThere is no evidence for precursor cells, precursor proteins and precursor genomes.text

Again, you are claiming that modern mechanisms won't work in archaic environments.

textNi. I'm claiming exactly what was written. There is no evidence.text

The assumption that protolife was based on DNA or RNA is just a first guess.

textThe assumption of "protolife" is a guess. Observing that life is based on nucleic acid information is good science. It is what we know about life. Assumptions to the contrary are mere guesses.text

It's possible that the first DNA and RNA molecules had an essentially non-encoding purpose.

textAny polymers observed to form outside a cellular environment have non-coding sequences. Encoded sequences constitute a very minute subset of what is possibile.text

Suppose we have a collection of protocells that can absorb water and compounds from outside the cell. Imagine that these cells divide when the cell size becomes larger than some characteristic radius that is determined by the chemistry of the cell. Now, suppose that, statistically, the chemical composition and behavior of the cell is preserved during cell growth and division. In this case, there would be multiple competing cells which replicate without need of DNA or any sophisticated encoding mechanism. You would have natural selection without DNA because replication and inheritance are matters of simple chemical properties rather than complex DNA-like regulatory functions. Now suppose that RNA and DNA precursors appear in such cells, perhaps not for encoding information, but for some other purpose, e.g., regulating some protein concentration during cell division. Within such an environment, the stage is set for the machinery of RNA and DNA to evolve.

textWhat are "RNA and DNA precursors?" The only way DNA regulates is through its expression. This requires very sophisticated cellular mechanisms and sequence codon specificity.text

Yes, this is a "just so" story. In fact, I just cooked it up off the top of my head. However, it is also obvious that we cannot assert that such a scenario (and there are a myriad of similar ideas one might invent) are a priori impossible or improbable. They haven't been explored, and the claims you are making are still all about the impracticality of embedding modern mechanisms in primordial soups instead of in precursor environments.

textThe points I make are based on our scientific knowledge rather than hopeful assumptions (from an OOL point of view).text

That is, you are unjustified in assuming that DNA and RNA serve the same functions (or even appear at all) in early precursors.

textFunctions of biochemicals are defined by the structure and chemical make up of their molecules. In addition function of nucleic acids and proteins are highly sequence dependent.text

textWe understand quite a bit including how and when genes are expressed... and, very importantly for this discussion, the means by which genomes detect and repair errors so as to maintain genomic integrity.text

textThere has been a pattern in evidence as knowledge about genetics and molecular biology has accumulated. Increasing knowledge has revealed that cells are ever more intricate than previously thought. There is no reason to expect this not to continue.text

I'll just leave those two quotes sitting next to each other. :)

textThey are good quotes. If you have a point get on with it.text

textDesign that allows for defects is an issue about intent and theological answers are available.text

Ah, so we cannot use utility as a test for intelligence because we can cook up a reason why God wants the world to appear as if it evolved? Not convincing, and definitely not scientific.

textIt appears evolved to those who wish it to appear that way. Your evolving prebiotic cell is quite conclusive evidence of this.text

Look, ID just isn't explanatory because you cannot have explanation without prediction.

textID's predictions would mirror those of its opposing theories in negation. You claim life arises from non-life on prebiotic earth. ID claims life comes from life.text

That a car's bald tires explain its running off the road relies on the prediction that cars with bald tires will prefer to run off the road. However, you cannot reasonably assert that deities prefer to make infinite, defective universes in which to breed far more primitive species to whom the their creator's purpose appears unclear or non-existent. That a God created the world does not predict that it should appear the way it does.

If you cannot make a prediction, then your "theory" is just a restatement of the data. It isn't an explanation at all.

Of course life must allow for survival. That enables us to enjoy much more: poetry, art, music, baseball, soccer and a whole lot more non-survival activites.

Talk about ego! The whole universe, here just for us to play soccer. Four billion years of life and death, just so we can enjoy hotdogs with baseball. Let me guess... the Earth is at the center of the universe, after all!

textYour last comments get to the heart of the matter. At the core of resistence from Darwinists is a theoligical objection posed in scientific garb. The distorted biblical reference you allude to indicates that man is the center of God's concern. You raised a teleological point. I answer by pointing out non-survival activities on the part of a species and a teleological explanation.text
7/03/2006 12:00 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Surrounding my text with text did not have the intended result. I gather it was suitable only for one end and a modified version for the other?
7/03/2006 12:04 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
I realize my HTML error now. Sorry about that. I'm not very adept with the commands but I just learned something and will apply it to future comments.

William
7/03/2006 12:11 PM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
William,

The assumption of "protolife" is a guess. Observing that life is based on nucleic acid information is good science. It is what we know about life. Assumptions to the contrary are mere guesses.

But these guesses do not contradict what we know about life. You are claiming that you have proof that modern life could not spring up straight out of a primordial environment. I don't think you have any such proof, but even if you did, it would be irrelevant. If life can readily form from protolife, and modern life could evolve from protolife, then your proof would be worthless.

Your argument suffers from the usual flaws in IC arguments. IC claims that the odds of simultaneously mixing A, B and C and getting some complex structure ABC are infinitesimal. However, no one proposes that A, B and C were simultaneously mixed, but rather that there are other possible pathways like AB+C or A+BC or B+AC, etc. IC arguments have been thoroughly discredited.

Thus, for you to show that abiogenesis is improbable, you must do a thorough analysis of these other protolife pathways, and you haven't done this. No one has.

ID's predictions would mirror those of its opposing theories in negation.

You cannot play science without making your own positive predictions. Evolutionary biology contains specific theories that make specific predictions. Falsifying evolution requires you to falsify every possible theory that could be labeled "evolutionary." That's an infinite task.

More to the point, how can you claim to know something more about the world, to have added to human understanding, if you can't predict anything positive from it?

You claim life arises from non-life on prebiotic earth. ID claims life comes from life.

Ah, so it should be simple for you to design an experiment that provides positive evidence of the life that designed us, right?

You failed to answer the question of explanatory power in your last response.

Our observations are like points on a graph. A scientific theory is like a curve that passes through these observed points. An explanatory theory cannot help but make predictions (interpolations and extrapolations).

Now, tell me, what is the analogy for a theory that claims to be consistent with every observation, but fails to make any particular predictions about future observations? If you said "drawing dots over the observed points," you would be correct. Clearly, that's just a restatement of the data. It's the statement that we cannot explain the data, we can only restate it. It's not knowledge, it's ignorance.
7/03/2006 8:01 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Bradford: (my comments in italics)
The assumption of "protolife" is a guess. Observing that life is based on nucleic acid information is good science. It is what we know about life. Assumptions to the contrary are mere guesses.

But these guesses do not contradict what we know about life. You are claiming that you have proof that modern life could not spring up straight out of a primordial environment. I don't think you have any such proof, but even if you did, it would be irrelevant.

I'm not proving a mathematical theorum but rather pointing to known evidence as to how cells function and the chemical properties of cellular biochemicals. A scientific hypothesis must be based on known data. You have not supported your suppositions with data. You are not connecting the dots in suggesting an empirical means of evaluating your conclusions.

If life can readily form from protolife, and modern life could evolve from protolife, then your proof would be worthless.

Your statement is sheer speculation in the absence of a definition of protolife that has experimental utility.

Your argument suffers from the usual flaws in IC arguments. IC claims that the odds of simultaneously mixing A, B and C and getting some complex structure ABC are infinitesimal. However, no one proposes that A, B and C were simultaneously mixed, but rather that there are other possible pathways like AB+C or A+BC or B+AC, etc. IC arguments have been thoroughly discredited.

Their detractors only think so. IC is a descriptive device not an argument. It is arguments associated with IC systems that are either affirmed or discredited. You do not discredit a hypothesis without scientific data. Science is not a logical argument divorced from scientific realities. I have pointed out that a coping mechanism preventing deleterious effects associated with DNA supercoiling. The mechanism consists of a complex of different proteins and their encoding genes. There are multiple interacting parts to this mechanism. That's descriptive not an argument. The associated argument is that this mechanism would not evolve. You can argue forever but my suggestion is an experiment based on the disablement of one of the proteins or its encoding gene in a rapidly reproducing organism to test the hypothesis.

Thus, for you to show that abiogenesis is improbable, you must do a thorough analysis of these other protolife pathways, and you haven't done this. No one has.

The only protolife pathways are the ones existing in your imagination. I know what actual pathways "look like." They have identifiable enzymes, substrates and step by step descriptions of reactions that occur. You are arguing philosophically rather than scientifically.

ID's predictions would mirror those of its opposing theories in negation.

You cannot play science without making your own positive predictions.

Where did you get that notion? If event x is impossible or highly improbable based on scientific data then a negative prediction is warrented.

Evolutionary biology contains specific theories that make specific predictions. Falsifying evolution requires you to falsify every possible theory that could be labeled "evolutionary." That's an infinite task.

It would also make the theory not falsifiable and therefore unscientific.

More to the point, how can you claim to know something more about the world, to have added to human understanding, if you can't predict anything positive from it?

The positive is that life was generated as a result of intelligent input. You are attempting to define adding "to human understanding" as that which accomodates your extra-scientific beliefs and feelings.

You claim life arises from non-life on prebiotic earth. ID claims life comes from life.


Ah, so it should be simple for you to design an experiment that provides positive evidence of the life that designed us, right?

The actual evidence indicates that it is extremely difficult for highly intelligent and very knowledgeable scientists, with a specific goal in mind and utilizing 21st century technology, to design life. You can infer one of two things from this. Either an undirected process was able to produce an outcome that has eluded these researchers or a higher intelligence was involved in the generation of life. The latter is the more plausible option.

You failed to answer the question of explanatory power in your last response.

Our observations are like points on a graph. A scientific theory is like a curve that passes through these observed points. An explanatory theory cannot help but make predictions (interpolations and extrapolations).

Now, tell me, what is the analogy for a theory that claims to be consistent with every observation, but fails to make any particular predictions about future observations? If you said "drawing dots over the observed points," you would be correct. Clearly, that's just a restatement of the data. It's the statement that we cannot explain the data, we can only restate it. It's not knowledge, it's ignorance.

I'll provide a specific and testable hypothesis. Living organisms have mechanisms that detect and repair their DNA. The proteins involved have specific encoding genes. DNA becomes corrupted over time. The prediction is that the rate of decay exceeds any newly developed functions caused by genomic changes. The associated premise is that disabling detection and repair mechanisms is consistent with the theory that they evolved and that there was a point in time that preceeded their evolution. Remove the mechanisms and test which way the directional arrow flows.
7/03/2006 9:46 PM
Blogger William Bradford said...
Doc: As for the ID class, it is devoid of theories that are scientific or predictive.

Your assertion is noted. Actually ID explains the reasons why abiogenesis is a modernized version of alchemy. Darwinism attributes the existence of cellular functions to natural selection. Genes encoding enzymes required to synthesize proteins came into existence and were selected based on the survival value conferred by the respective functions of the protein end products. Observe a cell, the function of any particular protein and its relationship to other proteins with which it interacts and you can explain the selective value of that protein. If IDers point out that the function of any particular tRNA amino acyl synthetase would depend on its capacity to interact with a specific tRNA, the existence of ribosomes, mRNA, RNA polymerase, a functional protein encoding gene and all protein factors required to express that gene and then hypothesize that incremental development of such a system is made problematic by the very natural selection concepts touted by Darwinists, Darwinists explain that science (as opposed to believers in molecular evolution) will come up with answers. But even if it does not this cannot be held against abiogenesis. After all a molecule can have a precursor function outside a cell right?

Doc: You can claim that you just don't yet know why the cats were mutated, just like I can claim I don't yet know what mechanism is responsible for abiogenesis.

Of course the fact that mutations are observed in cats and the reasons for some mutations
explained while abiogenesis is not observed and the presumption of its "mechanism" is an article of faith will be conveniently overlooked.
7/04/2006 5:29 AM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
William,

I'm not proving a mathematical theorum but rather pointing to known evidence as to how cells function and the chemical properties of cellular biochemicals. A scientific hypothesis must be based on known data. You have not supported your suppositions with data.

You are the one making the claim that abiogenesis is highly improbable. I am not making any claim about it. I am saying that we don't have scientific reason to believe that it is either probable or improbable.

I have pointed out that a coping mechanism preventing deleterious effects associated with DNA supercoiling. The mechanism consists of a complex of different proteins and their encoding genes. There are multiple interacting parts to this mechanism. That's descriptive not an argument. The associated argument is that this mechanism would not evolve.

I know what IC is. It is a system that is reliant on all of its parts for its function. Many such systems exist. Knocking out supercoiling genes would only verify that the mechanism is IC. But you know that this doesn't test the relevant claim that IC systems cannot evolve. No one doubts that an IC system, once in place, can be disabled by knocking out any one of its components. The question is whether the evolution of IC systems is improbable. This is the argument has been thoroughly refuted.

You cannot play science without making your own positive predictions.

Where did you get that notion? If event x is impossible or highly improbable based on scientific data then a negative prediction is warrented.


Predictions of negative experimental results are warranted! But that's not what you are proposing.

You propose to sit back and do nothing, then, when I make a specific experimental claim (come what may), you're going to claim the opposite result I claim. Skepticism is all well and good, but it's not a competing theory.

Evolutionary biology contains specific theories that make specific predictions. Falsifying evolution requires you to falsify every possible theory that could be labeled "evolutionary." That's an infinite task.

It would also make the theory not falsifiable and therefore unscientific.


Evolution isn't a scientific theory, remember? It's a class of theories, like ID.

I'll provide a specific and testable hypothesis. Living organisms have mechanisms that detect and repair their DNA. The proteins involved have specific encoding genes. DNA becomes corrupted over time. The prediction is that the rate of decay exceeds any newly developed functions caused by genomic changes. The associated premise is that disabling detection and repair mechanisms is consistent with the theory that they evolved and that there was a point in time that preceeded their evolution. Remove the mechanisms and test which way the directional arrow flows.

Are you serious? You are suggesting that you take the highly complex machinery of a modern cell, and disable some of the parts of it so that those parts are comparable to what you think ancient cells might have looked like, to see what happens.

That's like studying the architecture of ancient Rome by taking the elevators out of the Sears Tower. Will you conclude that the wasteful Romans never lived or worked on the upper floors of their buildings? Of course not. The Romans didn't build 110-storey buildings. So, you're not testing Roman architecture at all by part of a modern whole out of a modern building.

Your proposed experiment doesn't test what you think it does. It tests whether modern cells, when deprived of their modern support systems, die. Evolutionary models predict they will die, too.
7/04/2006 7:27 AM
Blogger William Bradford said...
You are the one making the claim that abiogenesis is highly improbable. I am not making any claim about it. I am saying that we don't have scientific reason to believe that it is either probable or improbable.

That is a claim and contrary to everything we know about cellular biology, biochemistry and OOL experimental results. If abiogenesis researchers had the goods we would be made aware of it. They are still struggling to show that biochemical building blocks can be generated in extra-cellular environments.

I have pointed out that a coping mechanism preventing deleterious effects associated with DNA supercoiling. The mechanism consists of a complex of different proteins and their encoding genes. There are multiple interacting parts to this mechanism. That's descriptive not an argument. The associated argument is that this mechanism would not evolve.


I know what IC is. It is a system that is reliant on all of its parts for its function. Many such systems exist. Knocking out supercoiling genes would only verify that the mechanism is IC. But you know that this doesn't test the relevant claim that IC systems cannot evolve. No one doubts that an IC system, once in place, can be disabled by knocking out any one of its components. The question is whether the evolution of IC systems is improbable. This is the argument has been thoroughly refuted.

It has not been refuted when the result is unobserved. You ask for tests and predictions and when offered some claim the experimental outcome is determined without need of a test. Standard Darwinian tactics.

You cannot play science without making your own positive predictions.

Where did you get that notion? If event x is impossible or highly improbable based on scientific data then a negative prediction is warrented.

Predictions of negative experimental results are warranted! But that's not what you are proposing.

That's exactly what gene knockout experiments are designed to do. The predictions are that supercoiling mechanisms (and more) do not evolve (but the possibility that they would is a positive putting the ID hypothesis at risk). It is a scientifically based procedure and a reasonable hypothesis.

I'll provide a specific and testable hypothesis. Living organisms have mechanisms that detect and repair their DNA. The proteins involved have specific encoding genes. DNA becomes corrupted over time. The prediction is that the rate of decay exceeds any newly developed functions caused by genomic changes. The associated premise is that disabling detection and repair mechanisms is consistent with the theory that they evolved and that there was a point in time that preceeded their evolution. Remove the mechanisms and test which way the directional arrow flows.


Are you serious? You are suggesting that you take the highly complex machinery of a modern cell, and disable some of the parts of it so that those parts are comparable to what you think ancient cells might have looked like, to see what happens.

Working our way back makes sense. It tests the theory of how complexity evolved from simplicity.

That's like studying the architecture of ancient Rome by taking the elevators out of the Sears Tower. Will you conclude that the wasteful Romans never lived or worked on the upper floors of their buildings? Of course not. The Romans didn't build 110-storey buildings. So, you're not testing Roman architecture at all by part of a modern whole out of a modern building.

Your analogy to intelligently designed structures is irrelevant.

Your proposed experiment doesn't test what you think it does. It tests whether modern cells, when deprived of their modern support systems, die. Evolutionary models predict they will die, too.

The test is generous to the evolutionary side. Error correction mechanisms are sophisticated cellular devices. They could not have evolved until an evolutionary process was well advanced. Disabling them tests whether the tendency for genomic disintegration outpaces the acquisition of newly selected traits. Other survival enhancing mechanisms could be left in place even if unlikely to be found in "protocells." A test organism would be one with a relatively simple genome.
7/04/2006 10:57 AM
Blogger Doctor Logic said...
I think my patience for this thread has been depleted.

This will be my closing thought.

You are the one making the claim that abiogenesis is highly improbable. I am not making any claim about it. I am saying that we don't have scientific reason to believe that it is either probable or improbable.

That is a claim and contrary to everything we know about cellular biology, biochemistry and OOL experimental results. If abiogenesis researchers had the goods we would be made aware of it.


This claim is not only ridiculous, but you have contradicted it in your past replies. It is the claim that we know everything we need to know about the mechanics of life to be able to predict the odds of evolution and abiogenesis. You stated that the more we study life, the more complex it appears to be. If life is so complex, we cannot possibly understand it in enough detail to know that it cannot have evolved.

Your proposed experiments test neither abiogenesis nor evolution as it is likely to have taken place. Neither are your experiments sensitive to the possibility of design because a designer could have created the first life to evolve.

You propose that an intelligence created life when you have no evidence that an intelligence could do so, and no evidence that such an intelligence exists or has ever existed.

Since your claims are totally non-predictive, they aren't explanatory, and they certainly aren't scientific.

Finally, you propose a massive conspiracy theory in which all biologists, though they be mutual competitors, are secretly allied to pull a giant hoax on theists by hiding clear evidence for ID. Quite absurd.
7/05/2006 9:36 AM
Blogger William Bradford said...
You are the one making the claim that abiogenesis is highly improbable.

Wrong. That's what the scientific evidence indicates.

I am not making any claim about it. I am saying that we don't have scientific reason to believe that it is either probable or improbable.

In doing so you are ignoring scientific realities in favor of your metaphysical preferences. Expecting that a series of unspecified chemical reactions on a prebiotic earth, devoid of proteins, encoded nucleic acids and basic cellular structures, leads to a replicating cell with minimal function is Darwinian wishful thinking. Experimental results are limited to showing that a smattering of biochemical building blocks are found to form under extremely limiting conditions. This does not include DNA or encoded RNA and proteins.

That is a claim and contrary to everything we know about cellular biology, biochemistry and OOL experimental results. If abiogenesis researchers had the goods we would be made aware of it.


This claim is not only ridiculous, but you have contradicted it in your past replies.

Wrong. Point out the contradiction or withdraw the claim. Your replies are largely characterized by generous useage of words like ridiculous without scientific data to back up the descriptions.

It is the claim that we know everything we need to know about the mechanics of life to be able to predict the odds of evolution and abiogenesis.

We know enough to form an educated opinion based on scientific evidence. This is a strange comment in that when Darwin formulated his theory there was almost nothing known about the data in question. It did not keep his followers from doggedly asserting the plausibility of his theory.

You stated that the more we study life, the more complex it appears to be. If life is so complex, we cannot possibly understand it in enough detail to know that it cannot have evolved.

Nice try. I see you are not adverse to attacking strawmen. What I actually said was: "There has been a pattern in evidence as knowledge about genetics and molecular biology has accumulated. Increasing knowledge has revealed that cells are ever more intricate than previously thought. There is no reason to expect this not to continue."

Your proposed experiments test neither abiogenesis nor evolution as it is likely to have taken place.

That's an interesting statement in that you are unable to document claims about protocells or your personal conception as to how life arose.

Neither are your experiments sensitive to the possibility of design because a designer could have created the first life to evolve.

If that is what occured then you can come on over to the ID camp. It's a big tent.

You propose that an intelligence created life when you have no evidence that an intelligence could do so, and no evidence that such an intelligence exists or has ever existed.

The evidence for intelligence is the information rich nucleic acids found in living organisms.

Since your claims are totally non-predictive, they aren't explanatory, and they certainly aren't scientific.

They most certainly were predictive. They predict fatal genomic decay that occurs in the absence of sophisticated error detection and repair mechanisms that could only evolve after considerable evolution of other genomic structures had already occured. This places in doubt the plausibility of even initial evolutionary gains if experimentally verified. Gene knock out is ideal technology to test historic claims predicated on prior simplicity. Rather than dismissing them outright Darwinists should suggest modified experimental conditions. But Darwinists have everything to lose and little to gain through such experiments. In the end metaphysical considerations override their vaunted concern for science.

Finally, you propose a massive conspiracy theory in which all biologists, though they be mutual competitors, are secretly allied to pull a giant hoax on theists by hiding clear evidence for ID. Quite absurd.

What is absurd is the fictitious allegation you just made. I allege no conspiracy but rather erroneous beliefs on the part of most but not all biologists. Why do you resort to this type of tactic.
7/05/2006 3:45 PM

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